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when ronald reagan said, there you go again, it was completely natural to him. as you know, chris, carter was right, he had opposed medicare at the start, but when reagan said, there you go again, it actually sort of discounted everything else that carter had said in that debate. so they've got to be organic, they've got to be natural, they've got to be real. i think everybody at least in the political class who has seen this report is going to be watching the debate to see if we can sort of tick off, oh, that was the prepared zinger. did he bring it off? >> oh, yeah. >> the other thing is he's not very good at this. i mean, you know, i know they don't want him to be spontaneous because he'll say the wrong thing, but delivering a prepared funny line seems to me to be one of the hardest tasks, probably even harder than telling us what's in his tax plan. >> as a journalist, joan, i want your view. suppose you're watching the debate, as we all will be, everybody is going to be watching wednesday night, and you see what is obviously a prefab zinger that doesn't even
when ronald reagan said, there you go again, it was completely natural to him. as you know, chris, carter was right, he had opposed medicare at the start, but when reagan said, there you go again, it actually sort of discounted everything else that carter had said in that debate. so they've got to be organic, they've got to be natural, they've got to be real. i think everybody at least in the political class who has seen this report is going to be watching the debate to see if we can sort of...
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mitt romney, and i'm not comparing it to 1980 and ronald reagan being an appealing alternative, but jimmy carter, not a bad alternative. i think that could eat into the president's support and more than just the undecided voter support. what do you think? >> not necessarily. because what voters too often and we see this and a lot of data. they complain and gripe, especially well as down in the polls. when it comes down to it on election day they usually hold their nose, suck it up and vote for their party leader. that is why we have undecided voters. usually if you're a member of your party by election day you aren't going to vote for the guy neil: i know you do this in far more exhaustive detail that idea, but i am old and remember 1980 and to remember that the undecided voters at the time, jumped either ronald reagan or jimmy carter. it turns out a lot more did. i'm not saying that there is some truth to what you're saying. those who are leery of that party or the candidate of that party would jump, could jump if they are disenchanted enough with their own who choice or intrigued enough
mitt romney, and i'm not comparing it to 1980 and ronald reagan being an appealing alternative, but jimmy carter, not a bad alternative. i think that could eat into the president's support and more than just the undecided voter support. what do you think? >> not necessarily. because what voters too often and we see this and a lot of data. they complain and gripe, especially well as down in the polls. when it comes down to it on election day they usually hold their nose, suck it up and...
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Oct 6, 2012
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when you put machine up against ronald reagan. they will fail because it is ronald reagan. let mitt romney have his moment and applaud him and not try to tie him to the past but look to the future. >> why do people say you need that phrase and sentence in a debate that can be remembered for people going forward for the generation toz come. why do you have to have that pivotal moment. >> they are the game changer. whether the age issue with mondale there you go again . are you better off today than you are four years ago in great moments. different time and place that we are in than we were back in 1980 even though there are many similarities. society is different today than it was back in the 1980s. and so we have to change and understand it from that view point. >> let me ask you going forward, what are your expectations as mitt romney prepares for his next big face off with the president? >> he can't have a down moment. i think what happened we see it in the polls. you see the polls change things are getting closer and mitt romney is in the lead. people saw them for the f
when you put machine up against ronald reagan. they will fail because it is ronald reagan. let mitt romney have his moment and applaud him and not try to tie him to the past but look to the future. >> why do people say you need that phrase and sentence in a debate that can be remembered for people going forward for the generation toz come. why do you have to have that pivotal moment. >> they are the game changer. whether the age issue with mondale there you go again . are you better...
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when you put machine up against ronald reagan. they will fail because it is ronald reagan. let mitt romney have his moment and applaud him and not try to tie him to the past buto. >> why do people say you need that phrase and sentence in a debate that can be remembered for people going forward for the generation toz come. why do you have to have that pivotal moment. >> they are the game changer. whether the age issue with mondale there you go again . are you better off today than you are four years ago in great moments. different time and place that we are in than we were back in 1980 even though there are many similarities. society is different today than it was back in the 1980s. and so we have to change and understand it from that view point. >> let me ask you going forward, what are your expectations as mitt romney prepares for his next big face off with the president? >> he can't have a down moment. i think what happened we see it in the polls. you see the polls change things are getting closer and mitt romney is in the lead. people saw them for the first time together
when you put machine up against ronald reagan. they will fail because it is ronald reagan. let mitt romney have his moment and applaud him and not try to tie him to the past buto. >> why do people say you need that phrase and sentence in a debate that can be remembered for people going forward for the generation toz come. why do you have to have that pivotal moment. >> they are the game changer. whether the age issue with mondale there you go again . are you better off today than...
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the big issue, big change began in 198 1980 that goes with the election of ronald reagan ronald reagan brought with them to washington a very underrated figure in a recent american history, somehow i don't think gets his due as an important person. that's edwin meese because edwin meese at first was in flash and then attorney general. said look, there has been a liberal agenda at the supreme court. there needs to be a conservative agenda at the supreme court. what was that agenda? expand executive power and end racial preferences, speed up execution, welcome religion into the public sphere, and above all, reverse roe v. wade and allow states once again to ban abortion. a big part of the reagan revolution was the arrival of washington of a group of young and committed conservative lawyers who wanted to work in that, on behalf of that agenda, who were two of the best and the brightest of that group? john roberts and samuel alito. 1970 -- in 1985, a memo at the solicitor general's office, alito wrote what can be made of this opportunity to advance the goal of bringing about the eventual o
the big issue, big change began in 198 1980 that goes with the election of ronald reagan ronald reagan brought with them to washington a very underrated figure in a recent american history, somehow i don't think gets his due as an important person. that's edwin meese because edwin meese at first was in flash and then attorney general. said look, there has been a liberal agenda at the supreme court. there needs to be a conservative agenda at the supreme court. what was that agenda? expand...
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>> ronald reagan. >> you got it. >> ronald reagan, 1980. >> '84. >> that's right. i think you both get a sticker for that one. ronald reagan in 1984 and obviously, he was at the time 73. he was running against mondale who was 56. cleaned mondale's clock. age was not used against reagan. >>> parker is back. >> nothing but a number. >> nothing but a number. parker is back for the second one. >> i knew jack kennedy. jack kennedy was a friend of mine. senator, you're no jack kennedy. >> jamaal. >> lloyd benson in the vice presidential debate and you remembered it was lloyd benson. good job. >> nerdland for a reason. >> what state, jamaal? >> he was from texas. >> does anybody remember what dan quayle said in response? >> he said that's uncalled for. >> that's exactly it. >> crawl under the podium. >> after the laughing subsided in the crowd. >> that was a pretty good one. >> i think that's my best. >> he's being polite. he's not hitting his bell until she is through. >> here's the next parker video. >> george bush taking credit for the berlin wall coming down is like t
>> ronald reagan. >> you got it. >> ronald reagan, 1980. >> '84. >> that's right. i think you both get a sticker for that one. ronald reagan in 1984 and obviously, he was at the time 73. he was running against mondale who was 56. cleaned mondale's clock. age was not used against reagan. >>> parker is back. >> nothing but a number. >> nothing but a number. parker is back for the second one. >> i knew jack kennedy. jack kennedy was a friend...
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successful pattern to follow, ronald reagan's. on the other hand, you had the debt limit talks in 2011 where president obama in the middle of talks never, until this day, has gotten specific. we don't know if he offered to raise the medicare retirement age. we don't know how much he said he would cut medicare and enact entitlement reform. so he did the opposite. he went into a serious negotiation not as a candidate but as the president and never got specific. it's one of the reasons we never got a big debt limit deal. so i think mitt romney actually is following the reagan pattern. the question is who when it comes to real negotiation with congress will follow through and get it done. i think mitt romney would be stronger at that. the president, if he could have done it, would have done it. >> secretary reish -- >> let me -- with due respect, with due respect to mr. fleischer, the fact is when ronald reagan was running we didn't have the kind of budget deficit we have right now. it's very -- >> that's not the point. >> you cannot
successful pattern to follow, ronald reagan's. on the other hand, you had the debt limit talks in 2011 where president obama in the middle of talks never, until this day, has gotten specific. we don't know if he offered to raise the medicare retirement age. we don't know how much he said he would cut medicare and enact entitlement reform. so he did the opposite. he went into a serious negotiation not as a candidate but as the president and never got specific. it's one of the reasons we never...
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the incumbent was ronald reagan and got his clock cleaned by mondale. trying to win the first debates against their challengers was 0-3. the next time an incumbent president is facing a challenger is 1992. the incumbent president is george h.w. bush. his major party challenger is a young man from arkansas. there's also this other guy with the big ears and it's the other guy with the big ears who wins the first debate. >> the day after, victory for perot. clinton hold his own. trouble for the president. there's no one scorecard for determining who won and who lost last night, but a consensus does seem to be emerging. ross perot, the star of the night because no one knew what to expect. bill clinton just good enough. and president bush, he'll have to do much better. >> by morning, what had been last night's analysis had become conventional wiwisdom. in the headlines. on the "today" show. >> clinton did what he had to do and bush did not. >> and in instant polls. >> those polls show the president finishing third among people who watched the first debate. >
the incumbent was ronald reagan and got his clock cleaned by mondale. trying to win the first debates against their challengers was 0-3. the next time an incumbent president is facing a challenger is 1992. the incumbent president is george h.w. bush. his major party challenger is a young man from arkansas. there's also this other guy with the big ears and it's the other guy with the big ears who wins the first debate. >> the day after, victory for perot. clinton hold his own. trouble for...
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i talked about tip o'neill and ronald reagan of the 1980s. didn't see eye to eye. they got things done. '90s you and bill clinton. a fascinating character. you guys obviously didn't see eye to eye. you got things done. and bill clinton is having a huge impact in this race. rich lowry of course of the national review said if you want to see when this election turned it was in the middle of bill clinton's speech. this guy still -- you said something about georgia ads. what was that? >> i was told last night by randy evans who is the national committeeman from georgia that there are more ads in georgia for obama with clinton in them than there are with obama in them. which makes sense. you know, bill clinton is the best political figure in terms of skill since ronald reagan. >> right. >> that's just a fact. >> right. >> and his ability to communicate, i thought his speech, which i had to watch, i actually didn't watch the obama speech. >> right. >> i watched the clinton speech. i thought it would be more creative, more interesting. and it turned out to be a lot more i
i talked about tip o'neill and ronald reagan of the 1980s. didn't see eye to eye. they got things done. '90s you and bill clinton. a fascinating character. you guys obviously didn't see eye to eye. you got things done. and bill clinton is having a huge impact in this race. rich lowry of course of the national review said if you want to see when this election turned it was in the middle of bill clinton's speech. this guy still -- you said something about georgia ads. what was that? >> i...
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in fact, you know, the unemployment rate for ronald reagan was higher and the unemployment rate for the president. >> well, it went to 10.8, i believe... and i mean, if you are saying that ronald reagan inherited a worse economy. >> gregg: he did. >> i don't know how you can make the argument. >> gregg: are you kidding. >> we lost 800,000 jobs. >> gregg: unemployment was higher, inflation was higher and interest rates were higher. >> in twa2009, january we lost 741,000 jobs and if that trend continued, we almost had a second great depression... >> gregg: i hear you. i hear you. justin, a lot of folks are afraid to invest in the stock market. interest rates are so incredibly low, the opposite of what ronald reagan had and, you can't really invest in cd's and money market account and that is not keeping up with inflation. and that left americans with, you know, stagnant savings account and diminished personal wealth and that is an important election factor, too? >> well, especially, it is an important election factor, especially here in the state of florida, we have a large number of seni
in fact, you know, the unemployment rate for ronald reagan was higher and the unemployment rate for the president. >> well, it went to 10.8, i believe... and i mean, if you are saying that ronald reagan inherited a worse economy. >> gregg: he did. >> i don't know how you can make the argument. >> gregg: are you kidding. >> we lost 800,000 jobs. >> gregg: unemployment was higher, inflation was higher and interest rates were higher. >> in twa2009, january...
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think about ronald reagan. jimmy carter had a lot of great lines in his debate with ronald reagan in the 1980 debate, but ronald reagan kept saying there you go again. in 1984 walter mondale was beating ronald reagan. but reagan said i'm not going to let age be a determining factor, because my opponent is younger than me and less experienced than me. he used humor and well-timed phrases make a big difference in these debates. >> chris, joe raises an interesting point, the same point that matthew dowd raised in a national journal piece. in preparing for the debates, romney and president obama needs to remember that judgments on winning or losing are much more stylistic than substantive. the public isn't interested in getting more detail-specific policy, but in getting pointers about people on stage. when debates have moved in the numbers in the past, it's been result the impressions, mannerisms, style. is it going to be all about style trumping substance? >> he's partly right. he debates especially when you see
think about ronald reagan. jimmy carter had a lot of great lines in his debate with ronald reagan in the 1980 debate, but ronald reagan kept saying there you go again. in 1984 walter mondale was beating ronald reagan. but reagan said i'm not going to let age be a determining factor, because my opponent is younger than me and less experienced than me. he used humor and well-timed phrases make a big difference in these debates. >> chris, joe raises an interesting point, the same point that...
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ronald reagan was good at the jokes. you also have to know how to deliver them. >> absolutely. >> you can have great jokes written, but if you say them at the wrong minute it will backfire. >> a couple seconds left. what's your favorite debate moment in history? >> i like 1980 when ronald reagan said, ther said, "there o again." there's a whole wikipedia site on that quote. it allowed ronald reagan to triumph. >> great to talk to you today. thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. take care. >> lots to look forward to next week. all right, what would you do for the man or woman you love? up next, how this man made his girlfriend's dream come true. stay with us. [ owner ] i need to expand to meet the needs of my growing business. but how am i going to fund it? and i have to find a way to manage my cash flow better. [ female announcer ] our wells fargo bankers are here to listen, offer guidance and provide you with options tailored to your business. we've loaned more money to small businesses than any other bank for
ronald reagan was good at the jokes. you also have to know how to deliver them. >> absolutely. >> you can have great jokes written, but if you say them at the wrong minute it will backfire. >> a couple seconds left. what's your favorite debate moment in history? >> i like 1980 when ronald reagan said, ther said, "there o again." there's a whole wikipedia site on that quote. it allowed ronald reagan to triumph. >> great to talk to you today. thank you so...
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but in 1984, another incumbent, ronald reagan, used the debates to diffuse criticism of his advancing age. >> you already are the oldest president in history. >> reporter: he was 73 at the time. >> i am not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience. ( laughter ) >> "i was smiling" watt walter mondale later said "but i knew he'd gotten me there." other lessons, it may be best not to start your opening statement this way. >> who am i? why am i here? ( laughter ) >> reporter: as admiral james stockdale, ross perot's running mate did, in 1992. don't look like you have someplace better to be as president george bush did that same year when he checked his watch during a question. finally, be careful who you compare yourself to. >> i have as much experience in the congress as jack kennedy did. >> reporter: in 1988, vice presidential candidate dan quayle made that mistake against lloyd bentsen. >> i knew jack kennedy. jack kennedy was a friend of mine. senator, you're no jack kennedy. ( cheers and applause ) >> reporter: in the era of scripted and stage-mana
but in 1984, another incumbent, ronald reagan, used the debates to diffuse criticism of his advancing age. >> you already are the oldest president in history. >> reporter: he was 73 at the time. >> i am not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience. ( laughter ) >> "i was smiling" watt walter mondale later said "but i knew he'd gotten me there." other lessons, it may be best not to start your opening statement this...
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. >>> bill o'reilly went on to say if mitt romney does well like ronald reagan did against jimmy carter he can immediately become the frontrunner. all things change because of this. >> an attack left four americans dead. still a big talker this morning the white house has come under severe scrutiny for the official version of what happened. the administration originally called it a spontaneous attack. >> a whole lot of folks. >> donald rumsfeld talked to greta about. he slammed the administration for the foreign policy saying it's a failed model. >> i think the foreign policy of this administration for 3 and a half, four years now has been one of a step back in the phrase that came out of the white house to lead from behind. which you can't lead from behind. leaders lead from the front. the economic management of our country has told the world that we are in decline and it was sufficient that the vice president of the united states had to go at the convention and say we are not incal decline. why did he have to say that? it is clear the country is managing its economic apairs faa way th
. >>> bill o'reilly went on to say if mitt romney does well like ronald reagan did against jimmy carter he can immediately become the frontrunner. all things change because of this. >> an attack left four americans dead. still a big talker this morning the white house has come under severe scrutiny for the official version of what happened. the administration originally called it a spontaneous attack. >> a whole lot of folks. >> donald rumsfeld talked to greta about....
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so did ronald reagan. >> ronald reagan, 8% growth. >> we're not debating ronald reagan. we're debating obama. >> reagan had a far worse economy than obama inherited. he said he was inheriting it and he said -- but he hasn't fixed it. >> wow. >> stephanie: wow. really reaching now, aren't you? >> they love to revise the reagan and -- as media matters has pointed out there is no comparison in terms of the economy because the fed could just change interest rates which they did, which basically fixed that economy. you know, the fed can't do anymore when you're at zero, you can't go any lower. also, the unemployment completely different story. what hannity never mentions, if you go back to -- we're going way back here. if you're going back to the closing months of the carter/reagan campaign, unemployment was going down under the last six months under jimmy carter. ronald reagan won and it skyrocketed back up. ronald reagan did not inherit climbing unemployment the way barack obama did. ronald reagan actually inherited unemployment on its way down. he got into office and it di
so did ronald reagan. >> ronald reagan, 8% growth. >> we're not debating ronald reagan. we're debating obama. >> reagan had a far worse economy than obama inherited. he said he was inheriting it and he said -- but he hasn't fixed it. >> wow. >> stephanie: wow. really reaching now, aren't you? >> they love to revise the reagan and -- as media matters has pointed out there is no comparison in terms of the economy because the fed could just change interest rates...
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ronald reagan did that, bill clinton did it. but this idea that we can't do it and certainly when pundits say further candidate should even touch it tomorrow night, that gets to the core of the problem. >>guest: that is exactly correct. this is the issue. all the issues that we are talking about in the economy are encompassed inside the national debt argument. you can get rid of the unfunded liabilities, as well, just the way we did with social security under ronald reagan by tending the age of retirement, by reducing benefits, by subjecting half of them to the income tax. there are lots of things you can do to bring this economy back and fairly quickly in two terms you could bring it back the way reagan did. >>neil: the fact is you cannot buy your way out it. you have to boom your way out of it. thank you, art. >> in washington, dc, talk of a plan to keep the government from going off an immediate fiscal cliff because if nothing is done, tax bill per household could jump an average of $3,500. now to washington, dc, with latest
ronald reagan did that, bill clinton did it. but this idea that we can't do it and certainly when pundits say further candidate should even touch it tomorrow night, that gets to the core of the problem. >>guest: that is exactly correct. this is the issue. all the issues that we are talking about in the economy are encompassed inside the national debt argument. you can get rid of the unfunded liabilities, as well, just the way we did with social security under ronald reagan by tending the...
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what i do, the same way that tip o'neil and ronald reagan worked together some years ago. when ronald reagan ran for office, he laid out the principles that he was going to follow. he said he was going to lower taxes and broaden the base. you've said the same thing, those are my principles, i want to bring down the tax burden middle income families. i want to work together with congress. one way for instance would be to have a single number, make up a number. $25,000, $50,000. anybody can have deductions up to that amount. and then the number disappears for high-income people. one could follow bowles-simpson as a model. there are alternatives to accomplish the objective i have, which is to bring down rates, broaden the base, simplify the code and create incentives for growth. and with regards to health care you had remarkable detail with regards to my preexisting conditions plan. you've obviously studied up on my plan. in fact i do have a plan that deals with people with preexisting conditions. that's part of my plan. and what we did in massachusetts is a model for the nat
what i do, the same way that tip o'neil and ronald reagan worked together some years ago. when ronald reagan ran for office, he laid out the principles that he was going to follow. he said he was going to lower taxes and broaden the base. you've said the same thing, those are my principles, i want to bring down the tax burden middle income families. i want to work together with congress. one way for instance would be to have a single number, make up a number. $25,000, $50,000. anybody can have...
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ronald reagan made a deal with tip o'neil. it was for tax increases and spending control. >> hurt republicans when they ran for office, didn't it? >> they got the tax increases. they didn't get spending cuts. he got the tax increases ch he didn't get the spending cuts. >> do you think it was a governing mistake. if he gets elected president, is he going to regret that? >> i think the crisis we face financially is so severe that all the discussion of finances last night, you can fergs. we don't have the money to expand the military. we don't have the money you have to overhaul sos to keep it sound. >> he wants to spend more money in the military. do you think that's a mistake? >> the money isn't there. >> david, this is where the obama campaign wants to go. it's saying, yes, we lost on style. but romney made himself -- i mean, senator, it's a complicated argument he's making on these issues. >> absolutely. and it's going to make sense after the the election. we're facing a fiscal cliff. all the consumers will come into play. an
ronald reagan made a deal with tip o'neil. it was for tax increases and spending control. >> hurt republicans when they ran for office, didn't it? >> they got the tax increases. they didn't get spending cuts. he got the tax increases ch he didn't get the spending cuts. >> do you think it was a governing mistake. if he gets elected president, is he going to regret that? >> i think the crisis we face financially is so severe that all the discussion of finances last night,...
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. >> bill: in next weeks debate, can romney do what ronald reagan did to jimmy carter? megyn kelly has some thoughts. >> bill: caution the factor begins right now. >> bill: hi, i'm bill o'reilly. the likeability factor. that the subject of talking points memo. there two are kinds of voters in america those that know the issues and those that don't. emotion drives a decision and part of that equation is likeability. many people think reagan defeated carter because he came across likable while carter was distant and same thing with bill clinton and younger clinton showed more personality. bush the younger remained personally popular until the recession kicked in. right now in a popularity poll, president obama is ahead of mitt romney by throw three-points according to a new survey. after next week's debate it could change dramatically. there is no question about obama and romney realize they must come across as nice guys that is why they go on entertainment programs. >> we're is very happy you came on this a mrs. obama and brought your date? >> i brought him. he had a few
. >> bill: in next weeks debate, can romney do what ronald reagan did to jimmy carter? megyn kelly has some thoughts. >> bill: caution the factor begins right now. >> bill: hi, i'm bill o'reilly. the likeability factor. that the subject of talking points memo. there two are kinds of voters in america those that know the issues and those that don't. emotion drives a decision and part of that equation is likeability. many people think reagan defeated carter because he came...
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. >> ronald reagan. ronald reagan. >> rose: in the 84 campaign. >> right, right. >> one point on the president correcting, i kind of agree we'll probably lead that internally but boy oh boy, the pressure on joe biden and paul ryan because that debate, the stakes are higher across the board. both biden and ryan are probably doubling their debate prep time now. >> can i disagree. >> rose: yes. >> can i disagree with my good friend mike murphy on that. you know mike you were just a kid i know but in 1988, there was a really much claimed vice presidential debate, lloyd benson and dan quayle. lloyd benson cleaned up the room, one of the great lines in the history of debates and it didn't move the needle one iota. i don't think vice presidential debates will be fun to watch or great for us in the press, i don't think it matters. >> rose: go ahead. >> i was going to say there are a couple sort of issues where there could have been more illumination in terms of flushing thing out on the healthcare debate where m
. >> ronald reagan. ronald reagan. >> rose: in the 84 campaign. >> right, right. >> one point on the president correcting, i kind of agree we'll probably lead that internally but boy oh boy, the pressure on joe biden and paul ryan because that debate, the stakes are higher across the board. both biden and ryan are probably doubling their debate prep time now. >> can i disagree. >> rose: yes. >> can i disagree with my good friend mike murphy on that. you...
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. >> but ronald reagan, people forget, before the debate, ronald reagan was painted as this looney, right-wing fanatic that would start world war iii, dr. strangelove, and it was the debate that stuck a needle in that balloon. >> i remember it well. >> not even born yet. i mean, this is romney's chance. >> sure. >> to connect with the american people. >> to pick up on mike's point, fascinating number from the poll is this. 51% of people who said they had heard or read something about romney in the last couple weeks said what they had heard or read made them think more negatively about him. more positively, that number was 48%. they've heard him going into this debate. this provides them a chance to say, listen, that guy you saw in the video, that's not me. i'm a different type of person. he can reset in that sense. i'm sort of with al on this. i spent a lot of time over the past week watching all of romney's debates from 2002. i watched every single debate. there were five of them. i read hundreds of clips in 2002. he was against a democrat. >> you really should get a life. >> i know, it's pat
. >> but ronald reagan, people forget, before the debate, ronald reagan was painted as this looney, right-wing fanatic that would start world war iii, dr. strangelove, and it was the debate that stuck a needle in that balloon. >> i remember it well. >> not even born yet. i mean, this is romney's chance. >> sure. >> to connect with the american people. >> to pick up on mike's point, fascinating number from the poll is this. 51% of people who said they had...